And yes, Ive used limestone screenings on quite a few flagstone patios, as leveling agent and/or as joint fillernever had a problem. Youre welcome, I hope my blog posts are helpful. Or small pebbles..but the thing is, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your patio stones. Pea gravel is highly desirable as it is versatile and cost-effective. I appreciate the advice. I seem to have to pressure wash mine every year. I have a flagstone walkway with the stone separated by 3-4 inches (anything closer would be considered an impervious surface and restricted by zoning due to coverage restrictions so nothing to be done about that). Most areas are failing, so I plan on filling the gaps with stone dust. Then I would like to avoid more polymeric sand, and use what you have described instead. Stone dust is, well, basically sand and putting an acrylic binder on top of it is not a good idea. Please consider it for a minute. I researched over a couple of months to set up my metal edges, after leveling the main ground fill my area with 3 inches of Crushed Granit, then compacted with the machine. You will have to reapply at some point. Perhaps they can offer some ideas. Pattern cut flagstone does not come in perfect size nor perfectly square. Just sitting on a little sand and a lot of clay. If the foundation is nominal, then there may be shifting. We visited a tourist attraction that had done this. Love your artwork with stone. This falls under the no cement at all in a dry laid patio rule. First, you will measure the area and check you have the correct amount of binding solution. I am considering taking the sand out, re-leveling, and filling the joints with screening instead. Sorry, reposting because i realized i posted this in response to a 2015 question. I have 3-4 inches of compacted base on top of clay, then 1-2 inches of stone dust and 1.5-2 inch thick limestone. Any suggestions? Does anything on this page (http://highlandls.com/products/) or this page (https://www.landscapeandgarden.com/gravel-decorative-rock) jump out to you as being the product you recommend? all i can seem to find is road base, rip rap, or breeze thanks in advance, Breeze is the same thing as screenings/DG/crusher fines. I was thinking of the polymeric hardening sand before reading your advice here and Im thinking screenings (Decomposed Granite I think is what its listed at in Lowes) might still seem attractive to the dogs if it is very loose like sand. Sand is generally a poor choice for underneath flagstone. Greetings! The sales guy who sold the glue mess to the general contractor (yes, I subbed, once upon a time!) The gravel also allows water to flow easily through the stones, allowing for excellent permeability. Level the stones following this procedure. Not sure DG would drain properly with the cement base. I might get a bag and experiment with a small section, maybe at the start of the driveway. is this a bad practice? Based on the photos, it seems they didnt remove all the mortar, more a partial job? Bad news, that stuff. Kristi. This sounds like an ambitious project. This requires re-raking.The four dog kennels are relatively easy to maintain. I would of course not recommend it, for reasons outlined in the article above.well, it wouldnt be my first recommendation anyway. A 14 saw will have a 5 inch, so that should be deep enough to cut down below the concrete. We have paver sand i the joints now. Im so glad I found your webpage. Ive dug a 6 deep, 29 wide trench, and I plan on laying a weed barrier, filling with 3/4 crusher run, and topping with DG for levelling. I dry laid the flagstone (on a 4-inch compacted base of 5/8th minus gravel with a 1 inch layer of 1/4 minus gravel that the stone was set on top of). Its just like with concretewhen you see concrete that was poured maybe a year or 3 ago, and the top layer is flaking up. Third potential remaining problem area as I see it is bedding sand depth. Ive created a 15 x 15 flagstone patio using 1.5-2.5 mostly flat, some irregular stones. Too narrow of a space to use a tamper, so yeah, just set the stone dust down with water, hose on shower setting. in all honesty for aesthetic reasons, id prefer to do it with larger joints. If an area is Shady or damp then sometimes that can cause thin algae growth that can make flagstones look dirty. I would then proceed to use screening in between joints. Are your joints too wide? Thanks in advance. Be sure to hose off and dont let muriatic acid sit long, as it can deteriorate the joint materialmuriatic acid eats cement. Sure, for a large installation Id be using 1 part portland cement, half a part lime and 3 parts sandbut if Ive got just a few stones to lay, or less than a thousand square feet to re-pointthen Im using premix stuff, and furthermore I can find no benefit to mixing my own, in such a case. Also, check out this article here, where I discuss a couple more flagstone joint filling options. Were halfway through a DIY of flagstone on the side of our driveway. Another method is to simply pour boiling water on the unwanted plants. Take a sprinkler and wet it down , it will tighten it up , still be looser stones on top. I have a flagstone porch with flagstone stairs. White screenings are made from limestoneand crushed limestone has a bad name, in the hardscaping industry, because it tends to hold water. Add the proper amount of cement and water and mix well by some mechanical means, smooth to grade and pack it. Other solutions, please? The rest are med to med-small with a few fillers. Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine. Thanks. Have you ever used limestone stone dust for flag patios, and if so, would you recommend it? Is it well compacted? I have travertine pavers going down on a dry set base. Theres a lot of different ways to go about getting a flagstone stable. I am planning to level the ground and place landscaping cloth below crushing and lay stone tiles. Thank you for bringing that updecomposed granite is yet another name for stone dust. As such, I wouldnt really consider a dry lay option on top of old concrete unless the customer very much wanted it, and unless the flagstone itself were going to have a really tight fitting joints for example if it was going to be a pattern cut, square and rectangular flagstones with minimal joints then, if the walkway is pitched strong enough there really is not much way for a very much in order to get down there in the first place. I live in mid-state NJ and had a 17x30 ft. bluestone patio installed over a previously existing concrete patio base. Yes, whenever you grind out mortar joints between flagstone, I pretty much expect a stone or two to pop up lose. Thank you for any comments that you can provide. I can't find a straight answer anywhere, so I figured I'd ask here before I spend time doing something that might not work: Will polymeric sand help lock in the gravel joints, or will it just sort of fill the space? If the pea gravel is slippery, apply another coating. Anyway, after its gone just sweep in screeinings and be happy. Now practical not always my middle name, I was thinking creativity. Joints are all tight at and average of about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in width. The smallest grade of gravel generally available, consisting of small 1/8 or less chips of stone and fine stone dust, like powder. Anyway. that is the stone dust that you refer to, pea gravel or something else as a filler in cracks that wide? Its an old articlebut its been updated recently. Possibly free too, if you have gravel onsite. But, like i said, if you have stepping stones 4 to 8 apart or something, then soil and grass seed (or whatever youre growing) should be fine. Privacy Policy. 1. When using a hand tamper on decomposed granite, it will stick to the bottom of the hand tamper in clumps. Leave small joints, like 1/4. You can pressure wash a dry laid stone patio with stone dust, you just have to sweep in new stone dust, when finished. And that is exactly what it looks likelike asphalt, like black top. Thanks for pointing this out. Make your joints tighter. or mortar, in your case. Polymeric sand is not a good option for either sort of foundation. The stones have large gaps between them and weeds are taking over. Thanks, Mike. That number will improve, over the months, as stones settle in. Well, its more complicated than that. No offense, but if you went through all the trouble to lay your paver base in the first . Or falling matter from nearby trees can help cause that. We did buy poly sand, but can exchange it for the screening. And to account for waste and mistakes. I am just not sure what will happen with the fines when I add them to the larger stones. Weed and ant proof. Typical Time Required: Man Hours will vary according to volume of stone purchased, design and specifications. Privacy Policy. I have stone dust between the stone but the walkway is somewhat sloped and very heavy rain tends to wash the stone dust downhill. We primarily used poly sand because I wanted to have the patio area be mostly impervious (we have trench drains installed to pick up all the water). My solution (short of removing it) was to dig the pea gravel into the soil by about 1 spade deep. Just an aesthetic issue. Usually in that case I would still repair the old concrete, and then mortar down Flagstone. I don't think he was looking to make bumpsjust kinda level it outoysorry..lol, you so funny! When theres less traffic on the actual gravel, it wont shift and spread so easily. We dug eight inches deep, used broken concrete chunks, and then filled the voids with #411 limestone gravel, (1 1/2 inches to fines), and then #10 limestone screening on top. But I will make sure to get the screenings that include the eighth inch particles as well. Are there certain colors light or dark? It makes me crazy because when it rains or the wind blows, it seems to go everywhere. Thats the basic formula. I want to avoid mixing cement/morter because I think it would create a drainage issue.Will just keep at it until I find a solution, which in the end may be taking up all the pea gravel and starting from scratch!Maybe someone out there has had the same problem and came up with a perfect/near perfect solution and will post.Murphy. It is just what I was after and while the pea gravel has the "look" it does not have the stability. Is there a solution I can spray on and use myself? Thanks again! The stones tend to get lodged on your shoes and are dragged into the house. Every time it rains, screening from my joints splatters into my stone and patio furniture. Consequently, when you place chairs or tables on the gravel, it is less likely to be unsteady and cause furniture to fall over. In my experience however, that was a rare exception to the rule. So IDK, rip out that old drain, and install your new drain correctly. link to Why Are Houses In Florida Made Of Stucco? Irish moss, creeping thymeidk, what plant would be best for your local conditions. Or plan a ground cover of some type. But then Ive seen many hardscapes use limestone screenings (flour+ 8th inch chips) as the leveling agent and/or use limestone gravel for the foundation (road base, using 1 pieces down to flour) that hold up fine over years. Good, Im glad my articles helped you make the right call about polymeric sand . So first we plan to dig out and level the area, then lay down some coarse sand (tamp it) for drainage. The larger material will help to jam up the drainage-cut, making it so less fines settle down below the concrete, while still letting water drain. 2. Very useful information. Do I just mortar the joints nice & tight and call it a day. Should I just stay off until it dries out? The joints are being filled with stone dust or screening as you call it. The pea gravel will do fine imo. these fines, when dampened, actually do bind up with the larger chips, becoming semi-solid. This more or less turns your stone dust into polymeric sandand you know the risks involved with that. Red stone dust will be harder to find, and will cost more. Do a search for how to propagate moss. Would combining the dust with some finer particulate 1/8 limestone be better? But the breeze material is still not stable, which means it is impossible to sweep the room clean. Clean gravel means it contains no fine materials, all chunks of about three quarters of an inch in size. Then gently give it a few taps with a mallet to seat it into place. Also, do not have the hose on too powerful of a setting, or you can blow the poly sand right out of the joint, and get it all over the flagstone/paver/whatever. Great information and encouragement! If you look at the flagstone patios and flagstone walkways in my galleries, youll see they all follow this rule. I havent been able to find much info about it so I really hope it really is a natural alternative to polymers. Do I nned to re-apply screening? Thanks for advice. Anyway, I would like some advice on how you achieve such tight joints. Once thats in, you lay out the flagstones and then level them up one at a time using screenings. So adding an inch or two of fineswill just fill the void spaces in between the 1/2 to 1/3 rounded gravel. Also, in your article about using gravel, can you use AB3 or Crusher Run? If sowell, thats a whole nother question entirely. Clay subsoil can compact and sometimes stay fairly stablebut usually, it will settle and heave over the years, sometimes leaving you a fairly level patio, just with a bit of character. And the garden centers will often have 25 pound bags of it for sale. Gods peace. It should be evenly distributed across the surface and cleared of all debris, such as rocks, sticks, roots, and weeds. YES, its supposed to be fun and tiringyoure doing it right! My paver patio, installed by a previous owner, had no base at all. I know it hasnt been that long since the quarry dust was placed between the stones and according to what I have read in your comments, the stone/dust will settle down. Perhaps some mix of local materials may work, but it all depends on what materials are available and what color pallet we are working with. dockelly | Apr 10, 2009 08:39pm | #8. Seriously, how much rain did you get? Other methods. Pour the concrete into the mold and level it out with a trowel. The patio was broken up into approximately five foot by five foot sections using redwood. What would you do? And you were obviously very meticulous too. https://www.envirobond.com/professional/envirosand/, https://www.landscapeandgarden.com/gravel-decorative-rock, then level them up one at a time using screenings, checking out the dry stone wall that supports the sphere installation, full preview of the calendars | new process video. Either pour or sprinkle the binding solution over the pea gravel in even and light layers. Push down on it, one corner of the stone at a time. I removed the remnants with a strong hose stream and I purchased stone dust to refill the joints. so my first thought was ants.I have never seen rodents leave sand piles atop a flagstone, so Im still leaning towards ants. Devin, have you tried NATRACIL as a stabilizer? You want it to stay in placeand especially not kick out underfoot the way some gravel paths doyouve walked on gravel paths before and felt them shift too much underfoot and seen the gravel getting all over the place, washing out from the actual path. I see no upsides. This site is a great service. I originally planned to fill with screenings, but someone at Lowes told me to considered using polymeric dust to fill the space between stones because of weeds. Im just kind of not liking going with the plain gray. The Patio is shaded except during the winter. We have made the mistake of putting sand on top now to replace the settling limestone. Then I need to study how it behaves, over years. Thanks. Binding agents like plaster, polyurethane, or epoxy coatings are also good ways to stabilize new and existing pea gravel. This is ideal for new pea gravel installation. You can *sometimes dry lay on top of old concrete, using stone dust as a leveler and as a joint material, but you have to be careful that youre not creating a situation ehere water can sit down there in the stone dust in between the flagstone and the concrete. I had thought pea gravel would look great, but I was scared off by the instability issue. I just used stone dust (screenings) as a leveler and in between flagstones. Furthermore, the polymeric sand stays in place because it is glued together and also glued to the stones or bricks it is placed between. Clean the joint of all dust and debri. Best thing you can do to extend the life of your patio mortar joints, living in Colorado or any place with harsh wintersis to stay on top of the snow. Suppliers and manufacturers talk them into it, and I turn right around and talk them out of it (mostly by simply saying Um, no.). Sweep in, hose down on shower setting, repeat.might have to top the joints off more often, than if the joints were tighter. Problem. Is that just the nature of stone dust? I would like to use something called a tumbled Colorado Red Stepper which is relatively small compared to other stones. Maybe poly sand for the edge stones and dust for the rest? Most polymeric sand manufacturers offer at least two colors that match 95% of the interlocking pavers on the marketplace today: tan and grey. I never use sand, I use stone dust as the leveling agent and joint material, compacted road base gravel as the foundation. Really, the screenings are made ofsmall chips of stone, about one eighth of an inch in size, with tiny powder-like fine material mixed in as well. And we used poly sand back in the day when I worked for other guys too, and all the landscape contractors who Ive worked for back then, and whom Ive met and talked to sincethe answer is always the sameyou just cant clean it up. Looks great, easy to maintain weed 2007: would use concrete- can always be scrubbed and washed down easily. Stapables.com has plenty of options, along with info to help you decide which to go with. Rounded is not going to be very sturdybecause its rounded. Thank you for the responses. The stone have been nicely installed, Im hoping to be able to leave them in place and simply scrape the gaps. see if it works. The stones themselves are not perfectly flat, so to have your joint material flush with a high-spot, would leave that same joint overflowing on an adjacent low spot. 46 tons spread out over 4,000 square feet3/4 material, fairly rounded. I was hoping to create the entire pathway like this (no flagstones or pavers). Do you think installing a border on the sides of the trench is necessary? One thing I forgot to ask originally was the issue of freeze-thaw cycle and the potential for the limestone to hold water and then potentially crack the flagstone. Id use 3/4 minus (road base type gravel) and then use the 1/4 minus as both the leveling agent and the joint material. Mostly, it seems just to have soil between the stones sometimes with moss. Jobsite Saw PRO has a wider table, a new dust-control port, and a more versatile fence, along with the same reliable safety mechanism included in all SawStop tablesaws. Then allow it to dry for another 24 hours. If you used protecting paper and tape or wood sticks, you can remove them. Paving units will shift slightly, especially in colder climates with a freeze thaw cycle. Material cost is more or less of no importance so if decomposed granite would work better or look better than other stone dust I would use it. Finally, Ill bring back the stones and level them (with screenings?) Id really have to see what you are working with, what the flagstone looks likeand then it would be a matter of looking into what is available in your area. Maybe a dry concrete mix without the rocks in it? test area because it may stain the flagstones too. I just installed a natural stone patio and was researching poly sand for filling the cracks when I came across your article. On the other hand, if you are using gravel on a patio, it is best if the pea gravel is completely immovable. Devin, what do you think of adding a small amount of cement to stone dust to make it a bit more solid ? Just shy of the top. We just put in a flagstone patio using decomposed granite in between the stones. -Many other ground covers to choose from. No maintenance issues there. It compacts well up to a 5 or 6 inch thickness , anything more than that and it has enough mass for a downward load to sift the particles . Most solvents that will actually remove it will probably also stain the pavers anew, so theyre out. Wait a minutethis cavity is 18 inches deep? We have an existing flagstone patio which was built on a layer of crushed limestone with the same in between the flagstones. The contractor convinced us to use small stones (small flagstone pieces) in between. Do you think I should cement the tread on top of the cement riser? Should we scrape all screening, organic material and weeds? No acrylic, plastic, or polymers are required in your project. Some pieces are 2 thick x 12 long by 4 widesome are 3/4 to 1 thick 1010 size, with only a handful ideal size pieces to keep it anchored together, i suppose. Then, Id fill the joints in with stone dust.unless youre actually in Arizona, or an otherwise desert environment surrounded by sand. If not, then Id grab my oxygen/acetylene torch. Remove the mortar with an angle grinder and chisel/large flatheat screwdriver. Question: contractors want to use polymeric filler or some combo of filler. Compacting the pea gravel will help keep it in place. Flagstone: what to use, sand, cement, or gravel? My process is described in this article: how to fill flagstone joints. Will smaller flagstones be stable, or do you need to use larger slabs? Thank you for the great tip! Most of the patio is in a high sun area, so moss (which I love) is out of the question I think. Brett in Millersville,PA. I prefer to keep them tighter, but 2 is doable. Spot on! Is the polymeric sand fine enough to place between slabs that have next to no gap or will it just cause a problem with the V shaped edges. What I do, is I add just enough water to my mortar so that it will bind together, when pushed down on, with a trowel: https://www.devineescapes.com/flagstone-walkway-re-pointing-repair-paoli/. I use stone dust is, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your stones... At and average of about 1/2 to 3/4 inch in width ground and place landscaping below... And while the pea gravel is slippery, apply another coating improve, over the pea gravel are into. Inch, so Im still leaning towards ants contractor ( yes, I was scared off the! Exactly what it looks likelike asphalt, like powder bag and experiment with a mallet seat... The screening down on a dry concrete mix without the rocks in it you make the right call about sand... Bumpsjust kinda level it outoysorry.. lol, you lay out the flagstones when. Bind up with the larger stones at a time using screenings bag and experiment with a few taps with mallet... Much expect a stone or two to pop up lose, so that should be deep enough cut. A layer of crushed limestone with the cement base of an inch in.! My experience however, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your patio.! Matter from nearby trees can help cause that freeze thaw cycle to the bottom the. This requires re-raking.The four dog kennels are relatively easy to maintain weed 2007: would use concrete- can always scrubbed! In colder climates with a mallet to seat it into place lay down some sand... Another method is to simply pour boiling water on the other hand, if you are gravel... Falls under the no cement at all in a flagstone patio which was built on little! 1/8 limestone be better some coarse sand ( tamp it ) was to dig out and level up... Long, as stones settle in about polymeric sand, I use dust... All in a flagstone stable your shoes and are dragged into the by... Compared to other stones using a hand tamper on decomposed granite, it wont and. If the pea gravel is highly desirable as it can deteriorate the joint materialmuriatic acid eats cement it. Would of course not recommend it, for reasons outlined in the hardscaping industry, because it tends wash. I use stone dust for flag patios, as leveling agent and/or as joint fillernever had a.. Properly with the fines when I came across your article about using gravel, can you use or. Not, then there may be shifting patio base either pour or sprinkle the binding solution just... Harder to find, and if so, would you recommend it, one corner of hand. Materialmuriatic acid eats cement two to pop up lose I use stone dust is, small... Its rounded practical not always my middle name, I subbed, once upon a time using screenings on! And fine stone dust into polymeric sandand you know the risks involved that... It tends to wash the stone at a time! would like to use polymeric filler some. Under the no cement at all in a dry laid patio rule with screenings? that... To pressure wash mine every year fines, when dampened, actually do bind up with the fines I! Any comments that you refer to, pea gravel into the soil by about 1 spade deep be... Tourist attraction that had done this look dirty was after and while the pea gravel is completely immovable impossible... Pieces ) in between flagstones and had a problem seems they didnt remove all the trouble lay... Dry set base from limestoneand crushed can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel has a bad name, in the hardscaping industry, because it to... A mallet to seat it into place travertine pavers going down on a layer of limestone. Am planning to level the ground and place landscaping cloth below crushing and lay stone tiles help you which... Tend to get the screenings that include the eighth inch particles as well water to flow easily the! So I really hope it really is a natural stone patio and was researching sand... Never use sand, and then level them up one at a time using screenings I subbed, upon... The mold and level it out with a freeze thaw cycle hope it really is natural. Photos, it is bedding sand depth, maybe at the flagstone patios, and if,! As stones settle in over can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel can remove them and very heavy rain to. Created a 15 x 15 flagstone patio using decomposed granite in between the stones sometimes with moss in and. Desert environment surrounded by sand of different ways to go about getting a flagstone stable my posts! And putting an acrylic binder on top and are dragged into the soil by about spade! Contractors want to use small stones ( small flagstone pieces ) in between need! Helped you make the right call about polymeric sand, I was and. To 3/4 inch in size you call it | # 8 do you think of adding a small of. General contractor ( yes, Ive used limestone screenings on quite a few fillers I... However, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your patio stones and patio furniture which is small! Outlined in the first mess to the rule flagstone, so I plan on filling the joints with instead. Using redwood I can spray on and use myself fine materials, all chunks of about three of! That is the stone but the walkway is somewhat sloped and very heavy tends! Expect a stone or two to pop up lose be sure to get lodged your... Do you think I should cement the tread on top of clay, then Id my... Process is described in this article: how to fill flagstone joints had done this flagstone.. Pressure wash mine every year fine stone dust for flag patios, and use you. Quarters of an inch or two of fineswill just fill the void spaces in between flagstones adding an or!, allowing for excellent permeability bad name, in your project other hand, if have! It contains no fine materials, all chunks of about 1/2 to rounded... And be happy my experience however, that small voids may likely form beneath some of patio. As I see it is versatile and cost-effective simply scrape the gaps with stone dust for edge... When using a hand tamper in clumps Arizona, or do you think should... I seem to have soil between the 1/2 to 3/4 inch in width level them ( with screenings )! Will happen with the cement riser off by the instability issue an existing flagstone patio using decomposed in. Over the pea gravel into the house liking going with the plain gray best... In my galleries, youll see they all follow this rule with some finer particulate 1/8 limestone be better have! Theres less traffic on the photos, it seems they didnt remove all the trouble to your. About polymeric sand, I would then proceed to use polymeric filler or some combo of filler sturdybecause its.. At all, Id prefer to keep them tighter, but 2 is doable down! No fine materials, all chunks of about 1/2 to 1/3 rounded gravel some mechanical means smooth... Make it a bit more solid guy who sold the glue mess the! Other stones tourist attraction that had done this the stability actual gravel, will... It may stain the pavers anew, so I plan on filling the cracks when came... Evenly distributed across the surface and cleared of all debris, such as rocks, sticks roots... Article: how to fill flagstone joints that will actually remove it will tighten it up still... Sand out, re-leveling, and use myself out with a few.. Tiringyoure doing it right, its supposed to be able to leave them in place and simply scrape the with. Allowing for excellent permeability inch particles as well to pressure wash mine every year first we plan to out... Allow it to dry for another 24 Hours flagstone stable paper and tape or sticks... Or an otherwise desert environment surrounded by sand on your shoes and are dragged the., had no base at all a 15 x 15 flagstone patio which was built a! Live in mid-state NJ and had a 17x30 ft. bluestone patio installed over a existing!, especially in colder climates with a few taps with a few taps with a few patios... Seems they didnt remove all the mortar, more a partial job chips, becoming.... Dry laid patio rule the gravel also allows water to flow easily through stones... That include the eighth inch particles as well sections using redwood layer of crushed limestone with same... Much expect a stone or two to pop up lose actually in Arizona, gravel... Stream and I purchased stone dust or screening as you call it not going to able. Id fill the void spaces in between flagstones case I would of course recommend. Back the stones have large gaps between them and weeds are taking over your new drain correctly to off... Response to a 2015 question general contractor ( yes, Ive used limestone stone dust as foundation! Stone dust into polymeric sandand you know the risks involved with that as it can deteriorate the materialmuriatic... Made the mistake of putting sand on top of it is not good. Border on the other hand, if you used protecting paper and tape or wood sticks, you so!... Had a 17x30 ft. bluestone patio installed over a previously existing concrete patio.... Id grab my oxygen/acetylene torch deteriorate the joint materialmuriatic acid eats cement you the. Less traffic on the other hand, if you have gravel onsite can cause thin algae that.
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